?

Log in

No account? Create an account

Excellent article - Journal of Omnifarious

Mar. 7th, 2006

03:54 pm - Excellent article

Previous Entry Share Next Entry

On torture and being "Good Americans
- lifted from memegarden

My question to any who read this and support Bush is this: How do you justify your opinion? What's makes this different from the Russians, the Japanese, the Germans or the Spanish Inquisition? Are you just pretending it isn't happening or what? Why shouldn't Bush be removed from office over this?

I'm honestly interested in your opinion.

I had a co-worker at Amazon who was very bright and who's opinion I generally respected. He voted for Bush in 2004 despite the clear evidence that his administration had condoned (even encouraged) torture at Abu Gharib (sp?). His justification was that everybody who was promoting Kerry was largely just against Bush and not really for Kerry. He had a point. I told him that I couldn't support a president who tortured people. He got mildly embarassed when I mentioned that. I think he was just trying to pretend it wasn't happening.

Current Mood: [mood icon] curious

Comments:

[User Picture]
From:ethernight
Date:March 8th, 2006 12:13 am (UTC)
(Link)
"Why should Bush be removed from office over this?"

Do you mean "Why shouldn't..."?
(Reply) (Thread)
[User Picture]
From:omnifarious
Date:March 8th, 2006 12:33 am (UTC)
(Link)

Apparently, I'm in need of a proofreader. :-) Thanks.

(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
[User Picture]
From:codesamurai
Date:March 8th, 2006 03:01 am (UTC)

proofreading...

(Link)
Excellent artcile

that'll be ten bucks. =)
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
[User Picture]
From:omnifarious
Date:March 8th, 2006 03:07 am (UTC)

Re: proofreading...

(Link)

Thanks! I'll send it via telepathy. ;-)

(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
[User Picture]
From:leora
Date:March 8th, 2006 01:53 am (UTC)
(Link)
I actually liked Kerry. He wasn't my ideal candidate, but my ideal candidate will never get elected. At least, not in my lifetime. But he looked like a good candidate and reasonably okay. I was hoping he'd win. I was looking forward to seeing what he'd do.

Yes, many people voted for him because the alternative was a power-hungry madman guilty of numerous ethical violations who is destroying the concept of civil liberties. But I actually voted for him also because I thought he might be good.
(Reply) (Thread)
[User Picture]
From:omnifarious
Date:March 8th, 2006 02:53 am (UTC)
(Link)

*chuckle* My vote went to Kerry, but it was a vote against Bush. I have basically no faith at all that a presidential candidate put forward by either of the two major parties has any chance at all of being good for the country. It's a matter of how fast it will decline.

I even consider the Clinton years to be a net loss. Sure, he managed to actually balance the budget for the first time in many decades. But under his administration civil liberties were still eroded away (much more slowly) and corporate influence over the political process waxed unhealthily. An example of the latter is the secret meetings between Hilary and the insurance companies to hammer out a national health care plan. And, of course, there's the highly underpublicized Tyson chicken scam in which he traded polluted rivers for political and monetary favors while he was governer of Arkansas.

Realize also that a national health care plan represents a significant loss of civil liberties as it place individual health care in the hands of whichever bunch of politicians is in power this season. If we had a national health care plan, couldn't you imagine Bush using it as a bludgeon to punish groups he didn't like?

Bush and his abuses have been a long time in the making. The seeds have been being sown for decades perhaps for over a century. For example, why does he have an NSA to spy on American citizens with anyway? Who created that? Why wasn't it dismantled when it was no longer serving its original purpose?

We need a president who's committed to working towards dismantling at least 90% of the federal level bureaucracy. We aren't going to get that from either party. Both parties would actually like to increase its size.

My only hope with Kerry would be that we would stop torturing people or holding them without trial.

(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
[User Picture]
From:leora
Date:March 8th, 2006 03:17 am (UTC)
(Link)
Fair points. I meant good on the level of who can become president. Because a truly good president cannot get elected, so I don't hold out for that. But he seemed about as good as we could get.

Although I am in favor of a national health care system. We already sold out all of our health care rights when we made health care depend on health insurance. The government is at least more fair than health insurance companies, and more people would be covered. Unfair and badly run health care is still better than no health care at all.

And most people cannot afford to simply save up enough to cover any medical emergency that might happen. Especially not with the minimum wage as low as it is.

Besides, we're wasting money by not allowing preventative care. I'm an example of that. They put me on disability back in 2003, but wouldn't give me health care til 2005. In 2003, my vision was probably fixable with surgery. In 2005, when I got the surgery, it was permanently damaged by waiting. They will happily keep me on disability for the rest of my life because I am legally blind. They paid for the surgery. But they wouldn't pay for the surgery 2 years earlier to fix my eyes so that I wouldn't be legally blind. And it was probably a more expensive surgery that they paid for, because the problem had become more severe. It was a problem that could not be resolved without surgery. The situation was clear. The government waited 2 and a half years. And now I'll be blind for the rest of my life. Badly, badly managed.
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
[User Picture]
From:agnosticfont
Date:March 8th, 2006 07:30 pm (UTC)
(Link)
So you put the rights of an insurgent above the rights of civilians ?

Take for instance a hypothetical situation: You have 1 captured insurgent, 1 WMD somewhere in NY, 1 ticking clock (the device is going to be going off soon) and 1 hammer.

What do you do ? Talk to the insurgent or wield the hammer ?

I've spoken with people claiming to be members of insurgent groups in Northern Ireland in person. And I can tell you that negotiation doesnt go very far.

The needs of the many outweight the needs of the few.

Am I saying that I condone wholesale torture ? No. Am I saying I would be able to sleep at night ? No at first. Am I saying that I would feel better about saving x thousand civilian lives rather than not hurting an insurgent ? Yes.

The problem with torturing people is that its not socially acceptable, not 100% reliable and the chance for making a mistake (wrong person, wrong technique) is relatively high. But that doesnt make me think the option should never be on the table.

I do think we should man up and do it in on our own soil - rather than outsourcing. We should have the courage of our convictions.

I have the same opinion about the war in Iraq - it was a necessary evil. The UN itself estimated that UN embargoes on Iraq were starving over 25,000 Iraqi children to death each year.
(Reply) (Thread)
[User Picture]
From:eonen
Date:March 9th, 2006 01:55 am (UTC)
(Link)
I would have preferred to vote for Howard Dean, myself. I lived in Vermont and my parents still do, so his record is closer to my mind than most.

Regardless, just because Kerry wasn't my first choice, and just because I considered him the lesser of two evils when compared to Bush, well...how would voting for him because he's not Bush be a BAD thing? Your co-worker's logic does not resemble the logic of this planet. It sounds like he voted for Bush just to be contrary...and that's no way to elect a leader!
(Reply) (Thread)